This is how it is *NOT* done
Okay, so I really love when someone realizes a mistake and takes ownership of it when it is gently pointed out to them. So far, on these dating apps, I have had a lot of success in nicely and (sometimes) cleverly calling people out for rude or inappropriate remarks and getting a good response back, as I shared with you in This is how it's done. I just love when someone's empathetic capacity is bigger than their ego.
And then I matched with THIS guy.
I don't know if I was off my game or if he was just the WORST.
You tell me.
[excuse my typos]
But alas...
Oh, really? Well, I guess you can. But like, if the response is that your comment was unwelcome, don't proceed by defending it! Say, "Oops sorry. Rewind! Delete!"
I wonder how his finances are. This sounds idiotic to me. But that's me.
No, totally NOT the same principle. But, well, at least he apologized for SOMETHING.
Don't you love being told what you "should" do? Especially when the advice is unsolicited? From a stranger? I don't know if he was kidding or just being condescending. Either way, I didn't like it.
I tried again, to reason with his humanity, hope for some empathy:
Well, I failed. Have I lost my touch?!
Um, I am thin and drowning in white privilege so not sure how these examples even make sense. Unless he doesn't like thin people or makes fun of people with his same skin color? Or maybe he would want to make fun of my tan?!?! Who knows with this guy.
And, there he goes again. Great. Maybe he thought I was being less diplomatic than my intention which is why I was failing? I wanted to make sure that wasn't it.
This surprised me, as it was the only non-offensive and non-defensive thing he said. Also, it sure felt like he was yelling at me.
\
"Please please let him write back something polite and empathetic," I hoped. And...
Not really sure what this has to do with monkeys but they probably have more class than this guy.
Get over it? How about if you even listen and validate one thing I said and then I'd get over it in a second you dumb $%$#. Sorry. This made me mad. Don't you love being told "Get over it?" Such a useful term to use with someone you have offended, to whom you have not apologized.. NOT.
But still, still I tried.
Please PLEASE let this be the turning point. I am starting to doubt myself!
Are you sure you realize you are talking to a human?!?!
Yeah, right. This opinion is totally unique to just me.
Not to a stranger, no. Not really. Not in that way. Am I wrong here?!?!
So, he is the one who decides if his words are harmful, not his eye rolling, steam-coming-out-the-ears audience who by now has her blood boiling. Um, I think your words are harmful if they increase my blood pressure.
Either I had lost my touch, or he was just beyond redemption. By this time, I just had enough. He got on my last nerve. So I told him this:
Wait, what? Objective??
And then I did something I almost never do. I unmatched him.
So there you go. Here is a great example of how NOT to be. Just don't be like this guy. Please.
***
Was there any way I could have gotten the response from him I would have wanted? What do you think? Tell me in the comments!
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Oh his behavior was horrid. This is a sad glimpse of what woman go through on dating sites. You handled his behavior well, stating clearly that you didn't like what he was saying. Then he went off trying to defend himself, knowing what he did was wrong.
ReplyDeleteThank you J Pa!
DeleteI actually like this guy. He's HONEST. And, Jennifer, you're always writing about how important it is for you to be honest, right?, and for others to be honest with you. Well, this guy threw honesty back at you.
ReplyDeleteSure...the thoughts that popped into his mind about you may not have been exactly what you'd hoped they'd be. But they're also not isolated. Meaning, he's CERTAINLY not the only guy in dating app world to look at your half-naked images and think EXACTLY what he told you he was thinking. And as he alluded, who are you to say he CAN'T be honest just because it doesn't fit your "Rules of Engagement".
I'd rather have his honesty than some guy trying to charm his way into my pants by side-stepping the fact he wants to charm his way into my pants. And let's not forget these so-called dating apps aren't used 100% by folks looking for long-lasting, romantic love with someone else using the app. The majority of men and women who use them are looking for attention, validation of self-worth, and to "feel" good. Surprisingly, many are also seeking EASE OF COMMUNICATION. Have you read this?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-digitally/201610/the-surprising-truth-about-why-people-use-tinder
I like this guy for his honesty and his unapologetic defense of his position. That's a sign of a strong and confident human and not someone interested in being emasculated by a woman who claims she wants a man, yet acts surprised when men behave like men in response to what she's putting out there. :)
what about the fact Jen found it bothersome to be talked to in that manner? He may have been honest, but what about tact and being appropriate?
DeleteThat was an interesting article you posted about
Anonymous, people of course are free to think whatever they want and yes, I do talk about honesty. However, honesty should also be paired with kindness and tact. His "honesty" was disrespectful. Also, if we are being black and white here, he really was not being honest because, um, no man is going to go down on ANYONE for 2 or 3 hours. He'd definitely get bored first.
DeleteThanks J Pa, exactly.
If you're a man on a dating app, you probably shouldn't say something that all of the women have heard over and over again, especially when it's something they suspect that most of the men are thinking anyway. You want to distinguish yourself from the competition! And you certainly shouldn't double down on an approach that's obviously not working; that's just dumb. Mr. Not-How-It's-Done would probably enjoy greater success on dating apps if he didn't confuse dishonesty with diplomacy.
DeleteThank you cminus! PERFECTION.
DeleteI am a different anonymous than the one who posted above, but I agree with Anonymous! You cannot demand someone to act the same way you want them to act. If you did not like his comment, why not un-match him right away and not waste time? Why feel the need to get someone to apologise to you (a complete "truly anonymous" stranger no less) and teach them a lesson? He is genuine - what you put out there (the pictures) show men that you are a woman who wants men to look at her body so can you blame him for getting to the point and not being a 'gentleman'? I imagine men who immediately apologise after being lectured are turning the train around, as you say, to please women to try to get back in their good graces to get in their pants. Not because they are truly sorry and suddenly realise what they said was inappropriate.
ReplyDeleteJust because I post sexy pictures doesn't mean I want to be talked to in an inappropriate sexual manner. Your comment reminds me of people that say women ask for getting raped by dressing like "sluts" or getting drunk. Are you sure that is how you want to come across? And yes, I certainly CAN demand to not be talked to in a way that I don't want to be talked to. And yes, I could have just unmatched him right away, but then he would have missed out on a teachable moment although, sadly, he did anyway. Maybe you think the men who have apologized for making rude comments were being fake, but I prefer to believe in their goodness and give them the benefit of the doubt.
DeleteAnd just to clarify - the only reason I post sexy pictures is in the hopes that it drives traffic to my blog. I have to put my body to use for SOMETHING.
DeleteI'm Anonymous #1 who sparked this thread from Anonymous #2 - You're not dressed in clothes. You're dressed in undergarments. THAT is a message. The way you present yourself in images on a dating site is VERY different from the way you dress in public and to go to work, correct? You admit to "dressing" this way online for attention, attention from the opposite sex no doubt. Therefore, why are you surprised when you're receiving the attention your intentionally trying to solicit? You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't expect everyone you attract to be the perfect gentleman you so desperately want. And to be honest, it's pretty clear you're not attracting gentlemen. You're mostly attracting men with an agenda who assess you and then are VERY smart and willing to play the game according to your rules so they can get in your pants. Let's be smart and not so naive, shall we?
DeleteCan we stop using the phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too? I believe that is easily the dumbest phrase that we use in this country, probably even outside this country. Who in the world would allow someone to put a piece of cake in front of them and not eat it? If you give me cake I am going to eat it, period.
DeleteI am on June the first side on this one. Just because a female dresses in a provocative manner does not give anyone the right to say something inappropriate or do something inappropriate. Yes, it catches our eyes and causes us to lust after and look a little bit longer. But that doesn't mean it's okay to say something. It's definitely a double standard because very few guys would ever get upset about being eye banged. But it's a double standard that we as gentlemen are supposed to respect.
That should have said at the beginning of the second paragraph that I am on Jennifer's side on this one. My apologies!
DeleteAnonymous #1, "And to be honest, it's pretty clear you're not attracting gentlemen. " That is quite an assumption on your part. You must have missed my blogs about all the wonderful gentleman I have written about and there are plenty I have not written about. I wrote a whole post called in Defense of Men because there are SO many gentlemen out there. I just haven't found the right one for me yet. Your attitude saddens me.
DeleteThank you Brian. I really appreciate your words. And I speak typo very clearly so understood you just fine. :)
I could be wrong, but I believe that his initial, what you deem inappropriate response, was in "retaliation" to you letting him know you're not in his area. I would think that he probably became frustrated that he had that initial attraction to you, had received the response from you being that you were attracted to him (the assumption one gets when both have swiped right), only to find out the likelihood of him being able to take any next steps was most likely not possible.
ReplyDeleteAt that point in time I would assume that he saw an opportunity to speak outside of his normal self and see what type of reaction he got. Now you definitely gave him plenty of opportunity to correct that behavior and apologize, but he never took you up on that. Knowing that you swipe in other areas would make me think you would get similar reactions with some form of regularity.
Just my two cents, but I can see him feeling a little cheated, for lack of a better way of saying it. Still not an appropriate response, but the only thing I would really blame him for his continuing the narrative.
Brian, I think you hit the nail on the head. However, frustrated or not, he really should not have talked to me that way. And no, I don't get similar reactions, luckily.
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree that there needs to be some sense of gentlemanlike behavior, but I definitely can't fault him for his initial response. Continuing to follow it up with defending his position and trying to sell it to you just made no sense.
DeleteI can get on board with that, sort of. I'd prefer a time machine to send me back to the '50's though. Or even the '80's. Except with today's fashion.
DeleteI am actually down with that, although I don't think we need a time machine we just need an event guide and find whenever the next 80s night is at the 930 Club. I say poof up your hair and break out the plaid and let's find an 80s night!
DeleteJennifer,
ReplyDeleteI will start by saying that you have a beautiful body. However, you know this. You are selling sex! What do you honestly think men think when they see it? Can you really sit there on you "high horse" and pretend you do not want men to see how sexy you are? You drug out the conversation waaaaayyyyyyyyy too long if you were so offended by his comments. BTW, I am a totally different anonymous. The people that are trying to defend you are more naïve than you if they really don't think you are using sex to grab attention. You should feel flattered that you actually got the attention you were looking for. There is no reason for you to be on west coast apps when you are not going to meet the person, unless you are just looking for attention. Making this guy try to apologize for wanting to have sex with you is idiotic. I don't do dating sites for this exact reason. If you want to meet a man on a site, put some clothes. It is not impolite to tell a sexy, almost naked woman that you want to go down on her. It is what I would say. He is at least putting you first in the sex. He is showing that he wants you to have as much pleasure as he is going to have. The fact that he stuck to his guns and did not recant his words is exactly what he should have done.
Oh boy, Anonymous #3. What is this high horse you speak of? The one you rode in on? Where do I say I don't want men to see how sexy I am? Do I seem like a hypocrite to you in any of the blogs I have written? Where do I expect men to go against their own biology and not be attracted to sexy women? And I wasn't "so offended" by his comments, I was bothered and hoped he could grasp that concept and course correct. I think my readers are pretty well aware of what I am doing, they are not naive and don't really deserve your insult. I should feel flattered I got the attention I was looking for? I wasn't looking for that type of attention. There is a big difference between telling someone "I think you are sexy/beautiful" and making a completely sexual remark. There is no reason to be on west coast apps unless I am just looking for attention? What about friends/conversation/blog readers? I have made friends all over the world thanks to Tinder. Maybe I could meet someone I actually really click with and move! Or maybe they could move here. If I want to meet a man on a site, put on some clothes? Have you seen my Tinder profile? Am I naked? That is news to me. At what point did I say I wanted him to apologize for wanted to have sex with me? That would be pretty ridiculous of me, wanting someone to apologize for thoughts in their head. No, I wanted him to apologize for what he SAID. The only high horse I see around here is yours and the other Anonymouses and I'd love for you all to step down.
DeleteAnonymous number whatever, you sound like a politician speaking with only partial facts. She's not selling sex in any way shape or form, she's telling her story about things she's experienced and her viewpoint on why those things happened and sometimes just simply stating the fact that they did happen.
DeleteHe stuck to his guns because he got his feelings hurt and he wanted to be an ass since he felt like that is what had been done to him.
Stick to your guns all you want, just do so under an actual name.
Brian - BOOM!!
DeleteThe same guys commenting on this thing over and over and over again. All the regulars that comment on every article sound the same ALL THE TIME!
Delete-Your so beautiful Jen,
-You're so smart Jen.
-Your writing is so great Jen.
-You're 100% right, Jen.
C'mon! Quit kissing her ass. The only comments that are interesting now are the Anonymous comments and now she wants us all to step down? At least there's some debate now.
And I'm not saying what this guy did was right but any real woman would have told him to F - Off much sooner or never even responded. You sounded determined to make your point and get an apology, which is stupid. You should have just said you run a blog and want to match more people to drive traffic instead of lecturing him on how he should behave. Your responses came off like a Fake Thank You or whatever you wrote about last week.
Anonymous #4 this week.
I am most definitely not kissing her ass! There's not a need to do so. Do I think she is an attractive female, absolutely. Do I enjoy reading what she has written. I definitely think she possesses intelligence, you got no argument from me there. I definitely don't believe that she is right all the time, but I also haven't read everything she has written as of yet. My only point that I was trying to make was why hide behind the anonymous tag? Everyone has haters and people that don't agree with her stance on things, it's common and makes people better because they can see more than just their own opinion or their own vision for certain things. I'm sure she can more than defend her own work but simply logging on to a site anonymously to bash what someone works very hard at putting together his cowardly in my book.
DeleteThank you Brian.
DeleteAnonymous #4 I don't pour my heart and soul and genuine self into this to debate with people who can't stand by their words publicly as I stand by mine. I don't need negative vibes, I need encouragement, this is all hard. All of it, the blog, the writing, the experiences, life in general. I believe in lifting people up, not putting them down. You have a lot of powet from your phone screen or computer to make or break a mood or a day. I'd be more careful with that power.
DeleteAlso, this is the last Anonymoys comment I will be responding to or that will appear on my blog.
You ask if there was anything you could have said to have gotten the reaction you wanted. Probably not. He seemed intent on being a bit outrageous to get a reaction. Whatever. He's 3,000 miles away and knew nothing would come of actual flirting, so he decided to provoke. Is that the "real" him? The "interwebz" him? Who knows? What bothers me--what really put sand in my craw--is that you say, "Swiping where I live is just depressing. I need to see handsome faces, like yours. " Oi! As someone who lives where you live (generally), I'll take a minute to represent the men of the DMV and say we're perfectly handsome and, on average, smarter as a population. Maybe a bit more emotionally stunted, but you've got to take the bitter with the sour sometimes. :p
DeleteJust to add a quick point, I don't condone what he said, nor, frankly, do I understand it. Unless there's a clear indication the conversation is going in an overtly sexual direction, I wouldn't have said what he did. It's just bad form, even if you feel aggrieved (finding out Jen is 3000 miles away is pretty thin gruel for feeling aggrieved). There's honesty and there's being crude to a stranger...
DeleteJohn, you are right. The reason I said that to him was because I wanted to give him a compliment to lessen the blow of telling him I didn't like what he said. But yeah, it wasn't very nice to my local men and I probably should have thought of a better thing to say. Apologies. However, it is still the truth because it does get depressing swiping here. Given that you are a male and swiping on females, you don't see the selection I see.
DeleteThanks John. xo
ReplyDeleteIn summary, if what he said to me he had said to a stranger on the street it would have been considered sexual harassment. My point is, why should we have lower our standards for online communication than we would for in person? The same goes for anonymous comments, if you wouldn't say it to my face, don't say it to me at all. I do want to thank one of the above Anonymouses though who said that "isn't my blog about honesty?" I get asked all the time what my blog is about and I never know how to answer that question. Well, you helped me. My blog isn't about honesty per se, my blog is about MANNERS. So, thank you.
ReplyDeleteBut salivating over men with muscles ("guns", abs, etc.) is fine and dandy? lol As an owner of said weaponry, I do not sculpt my body for women, contrary to popular (female) belief. I do it for me, myself, and I as a way to push and challenge myself. I also don't wear Smedium shirts either, tho. Think about it next time you objectify another man on your blog.
Delete#metoo
vid ad, I don't think salivating is a problem and men usually appreciate compliments about the hard work they put in to their physiques. Whatever your reason for working on your body, that is great that you do it and I am sure it is appreciated by females who get to see your hard work. As far as objectifying a man on my blog and your use of #metoo? Seriously? Give me a break.
DeleteBut when somebody (a male) says you have nice tits, you (proverbial "you") scream rape? lol Double standards, Jennifer. That's all I'm saying. Just helping you see some things from the other side (Hello?).
DeleteI think you are being really extreme in saying what people consider rape and it really isn't funny or cool or, more importantly kind or helpful to do that. In my case, if someone said that to me, I would first say it hurt my ears because I don't like that kind of language, but I would still appreciate the compliment. Have you read my blog post called "Smile!" yet?
DeleteIf you think this is extreme, I urge to do some research on false rape allegations. How many men have gone to serve hard time for something they've never done? All it takes, it appears, is a woman changing her mind the morning after to ruin one's life. You yourself mentioned the "battle of the sexes" in that "Smile!" post. That's precisely why men are limiting contact with women (especially in the workplace). Who wants to be accused of sexual harassment these days? I completely agree with your logic, but that's not how things work anymore here, in America.
Deletevic ad, of course I agree that it is horrible when men are falsely accused and their lives are ruined and that men are now living in fear of how to even approach females (hmmm... maybe the kind of fear women have been living with since like FOREVER?). Yeah, I know that isn't how things work here anymore; let's do our best to make it better!!
DeleteJennifer,
ReplyDeleteI'm really curious about your doggedness in trying to repeatedly teach the lesson to a clearly unwilling student. I understand the sentiment and the first two attempts but at some point did it not become more than seizing a teachable moment and more about demanding some sort of accountability from him as opposed to recognizing the cause is lost and that it's time to move on? I don't mean to sound as though I sit in judgement of you. In fact I see a lot of myself in how you handled this exchange. I don't really like that impulse in me but I'm extremely aware of it so I'm genuinely asking if you consider it a demon to be wrestled with or a healthy practice.
So, in full disclosure: 1. I truly hoped he would impress me by getting an empathetic clue. 2. Um, I write a blog. As soon as I saw how it was going, I knew I was going to have some material. I probably shouldn't announce that publicly, but I like to be transparent.
Delete